O
ver the course of his career, Vince Staples has been a reliable source for insightful discourse about basically everything. Even when he’s at his most laconic, he’s often the first to hint at a truth we’ve all been feeling. At The Rolling Stone Residency, which brings the Rolling Stone Interview into a live format at New York’s historic Cherry Lane Theatre, he’s as interested in the assumptions behind my questions as the answers.
Staples had a kaleidoscopic creative vision from his early releases, like 2013’s “Nate” and 2014’s “Blue Suede,” which painted West Coast street life in literary terms, the braided drama of the stories that surrounded him coming into focus, though always with an eye towards a further horizon. His latest album, the adventurously genre-agnostic Crybaby, carries the frenetic energy of punk, funk, jazz, and everything therein. Vince Staples raps, too, of course. And very well. Throughout his catalog are reminders of Vince’s subdued and pointed wit.
At Cherry Lane, Staples followed his conversation with a propulsive, sharped-edged performance backed by his band. But before that, he had plenty to say about what it takes to bring that music to an audience night after night. “When you go to work every day, the building is already there. The desk is already there,” he tells me. “And when you go on tour, nothing exists.” He notes that touring artists and their teams have to think about funding the bus, the band, insurance, and more: “You spend all this money up front and if you don’t sell no tickets, then you don’t make no money. Nobody’s doing that if they don’t like to do it.” Later, he puts it this way: “So if I’m an artist and I’m giving art to the world and people are consuming art and appreciating it, we’re even.”
Walk me through the genesis of Crybaby. Where did it start?
It depends on your viewpoint. I always have songs. Some of those songs are really old. None of them are new, to be honest. You just kind of compile some things and try to find the most streamlined identity for whatever one central thought is, or a sonic bed or something like that. So we had a couple songs for a couple years. I think the oldest song’s probably like six, seven years old.
Which one’s that?
“Blackberry” is old. “Seven in the Morning” is old. I think the newest songs are probably “Tulsa” and “Cotton,” but thinking about it, “TV Guide” is really new. “Running Man” is old. So yeah, probably “Blackberry” is probably the oldest song.
“Blackberry Marmalade,” whose video is shot in the style of a first-person shooter game, is one of my favorite songs on the record, and it’s an interesting way to start the album. What was the process behind it?
I think it depends on how a song starts. If it starts sonically or if it starts with the writing, certain things are written and then you kind of have to find the appropriate palette for it or arrangement and things of that nature.
NINA WESTERVELT
That was one of those songs that was kind of written in different fragments and came together later. We’ve been doing a lot of different sketches and things like that. You get to the point where you have one thing that is what you’re hearing, and then you use that to piggyback off the other things. A lot of the times I feel like in a production space people need to hear something else before they can make their thing, just in a sense of being cohesive or whatever.
So that’s one of those things that took a while to create. And then once we finally got the production around it, it led into the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
Toward the end of the song, there’s that N-word chant. You can feel the commentary around white audiences engaging with this music. What was your thinking in the songwriting?
I don’t really got to think about it like that, just because I feel like when you’re operating in music, you have to find ways to approach your honest ways of thinking, your truest thoughts or emotions and things of that nature. So when it comes down to writing about shit like that, that’s easy because I’m Black as shit. So it’s an easy thing to do. It’s just a matter of if you want to say it or if it feels appropriate.
Does honesty in the music come easily to you? It sounds like the thoughts of someone who has to deal with this all the time, but maybe doesn’t express it all the time.
Dealing with what, like fan engagement?
Fan engagement, the white gaze on what you make.
See, honestly, bro, it all depends on how you spend your time and what you kind of pay attention to. I don’t really care what anybody thinks about what I make because that’s not my part of the job. My part is make things. I don’t really get too much into that stuff. And it’s very out of body, the way that people talk about music. It’s from an idealistic standpoint. It’s not like a real thing. So whether that’s a white person or any person, their critique is only based on their viewpoint and their assumptions of who you are, what you’re supposed to be making. So I don’t really think it’s fair as an artist to be too tight about that.
But your music, at the same time, is very political.
I mean, yeah, I guess. I’m just Black, bro. I know everyone grows up different. Everyone has different experiences and, lucky enough, I’ve experienced a life that has only been kind of one way, for lack of better words, without kind of getting into the weeds of it. So yeah, I’ve never had any other kind of conversations or experiences in my house or my family or my friends.
So this is just what it is.
Yeah. I know there’s some moments in people’s lives where they become radical and shit like that. I’m aware of that, but that’s not a thing for me. I just kind of talk.
Have you ever found yourself in a position where people didn’t want you to say certain things?
If so, they didn’t tell me. I don’t communicate with that many people, so that’s not something I’ve had to deal with, with the artistry and things of that nature. So I’m grateful for that.
“If you say that utilizing certain sounds is abandoning hip-hop, you don’t know enough about hip-hop to have a conversation about it.”
Another theme on the record is the typecasting of Black artists, especially hip-hop artists. Do you think about genre at all?
I think genre’s not really for the artists. When you’re operating within the genre, it gives you a certain set of rules. And hip-hop music doesn’t really have any rules. No music has rules anymore anyway after the internet, but I think the guardrails of genre to me lie in musicianship, and that’s not really a thing anymore. But as far as from the audience, I think it’s more so a reference point of what something might be or what something might feel like. So I don’t have any issue with anyone saying any song is any genre. It’s like a section in the grocery store to me. It’s not a thing.
You’ve talked about your old label being resistant to putting out certain types of music because they wanted you to stay in the hip-hop space.
They think the audience wants a certain type of music from Black people, and they right.
Do you think they’re completely right? I would hope it’s more dynamic than that.
That’s not how money work.
NINA WESTERVELT
Your engagement with indie music and different genres goes back pretty far. What made you want to do a more rock-leaning record at this moment?
These are just the songs I have, bro. I promise you, it’s never that deep for me.
So this is just the mode you’ve been in.
I promise you, I have no other songs right now at all. These are the songs I have. Anything I’ve ever made, I just put out. I don’t think about it that deeply. Music is like a pure thing. Ray Charles might have gospel music, he might have country music. So many different things that you can do at once. It’s just music.
How did you get exposed to that sound?
I think everybody gets exposed to everything the same way as far as you’re human, you’re living. We have different experiences that expose us to things. Not you specifically, but when people ask these things, that’s their presumption of the area in which I grew up. Because we have people who have no familiarity with, I would like to say, an urban Black street dynamic. So they think it’s one way because they saw The Wire or something like that, and that’s just not true. But I understand it. I hear music like everybody else hears music, from growing up and going to school and having friends and being in certain situations.
What were you hearing in terms of rock music that stuck with you?
It just depends on what you consider rock music to be. Is rock music the Isley Brothers? If not, then the Who’s not rock music. Is rock music James Brown? If not, then the Stooges isn’t rock music.
I didn’t really know much about music growing up. They were just songs. So you can pull certain songs from certain genres that have a lot of different similarities. Certain things might be reminiscent of James Brown or Aretha Franklin or Isley Brothers or Black artists that would be considered soul or funk that are foundational in rock music, based on the people that are considered to be rock legends and who they look up to.
It’s just music. It was always everywhere. You pick up music from school, from friends, from skateboarding, from movies. It could be anything.
We’re a similar age, and we came up around file sharing and streaming. How much did that inform your early musical identity?
To be honest, that was later for me, bro. But I have friends. I had a friend in school that would make people CDs and stuff like that. I didn’t really start learning about music until I got out of high school, until I was like 16, 17.
“That middle ground between entertaining and being polarizing [is what] we try to put into the music.”
Were you already making music?
Yeah. So it was kind of like market research, so to say.
What do you mean by market research?
Listening to different kinds of music so you can learn how to properly make music is what I mean by market research. If you’re not paying attention to the things that have happened in music, you don’t know music history. There are a lot of artists walking around that might make music but might not be able to tell you what the BPM of their songs are, which key they’re in or what the processing is on their vocal chain. And I think that’s just because it’s so easy to make music now, but it wasn’t like that 10, 15 years ago. So you had to kind of know more about the overall thing to be able to execute properly.
At that time, [I was] just trying stuff, throwing stuff at the wall. I [didn’t] really have an understanding of recording for sure, just songwriting, any of that stuff at that point in time. It was really kind of rough as far as the product that we were coming out with. But yeah, we were children, so just trying stuff.
As rough as it might sound to you now, it felt very polished and finished to the audience.
Yeah. It wasn’t quantized. A lot of stuff is offbeat.
It’s the mistakes. It’s the stuff you look for.
Yeah, for sure. But the audience says that until it’s time to buy some shit. And when it’s time to buy some shit, all that unpolished shit goes out the window.
When hip-hop artists try different things, they get attacked from both sides: One says they’re abandoning hip-hop, and the other says they’re trying on something else. Do you approach it as, “This is all Black music, so I don’t give a fuck”?
Nah, I just let people say what they want to say. We have to be honest about conversations. There’s a difference between a conversation and a social media thing that’s based on engagement. People really just talking about one website, you know what I mean? And it’s a debate platform at this day and age. So if people are utilizing that platform, they’re literally there to debate or else there’s no reason to be there. So I don’t think you can kind of get too much in their business or what they’re arguing about.
But when you respond to people on the internet, you get into the debate too.
Well, I just think it’s funny.
So you have no opinions on it?
I don’t know. They don’t know anything about music. Why would I be arguing with people that don’t know anything about music?
NINA WESTERVELT
That’s the Kanye quote: Why would I argue with people with less money than me?
Well, no, that’s some fuck shit. But I’m just saying if people are speaking about their emotions and how they feel about stuff and not necessarily the composition of the music or the intention of the music, they have the right to do that to me.
If you say that utilizing certain sounds is abandoning hip-hop, then you don’t know enough about hip-hop to have a conversation about it. Because it doesn’t make any sense, literally.
“Big Bad Wolf” samples Slick Rick’s “Children’s Story.” The two songs feel like they’re in dialogue. Walk me through writing that one.
I don’t write any songs in the studio. So, honestly, I don’t remember when I wrote that song. I think I had that beat for a long time and I [had] never put two and two together and combined it with the song, because I think that’s two different songs put together. We tried to use that sample on another song with the same general ideas, different production, but it just kind of meshed better with [“Big Bad Wolf”].
Rick gave us a very, very, very generous deal on that license, because we got the same lawyer. That was one of the easiest songs to make, though, to be honest.
Any other thoughts about that song?
No, I just make songs, bro. I don’t critique them. I don’t got nothing. I know it’s probably fucking irritating for people, but that’s just not how my brain works, bro. I make it and then I put it out and then it don’t exist no more.
It doesn’t exist to you after it’s out in the world?
No, not at all.
Really?
No. Why would it?
Do you ever go back and listen to your old music?
Yeah, for sure, but it’s not like a child or that kind of thing. It’s songs, you put them out in the world. If it makes sense, it makes sense. If it don’t, it don’t. And I know that’s hard for people to think when people say, “It’s impossible for him to not care about music.” With the subject matter, it’s just like, I’m a nigga. I’m not a fake Black. I have a Black experience and a Black existence. So the subject matter of the reality of being here and who we are at this moment — I’ve been making songs about it for a very, very long time. So the acknowledgement of that content is important and I appreciate it, but as far as me having something to say about it, it’s like, everything I have to say is on all of those songs.
You’re touring with a live band now. What’s that change been like?
It’s relatively the same approach. It’s just a matter of the time that you spend rehearsing and things like that. But that’s mostly for them, not me. The songs are the songs.
“I’m not rich like that. I got some bread, but I’m not rich. I got less money than [an] anesthesiologist.”
What kind of connection do you try to build with the band?
You want to create a good environment for people regardless when you’re employing them, as far as them feeling seen, heard, being humanely treated. Base-level stuff is important, but it goes a long way on the road when you’re basically living with these people. So we try to make sure that it’s a cool environment and everybody feels like they’re a part of the family or team or whatever.
So do you treat it like you’re their boss?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
But from what you just said, you’re a good boss.
They’re being employed, and there are certain things that your employer’s obligated to do that your friends or family might not be. I think it would be unfair to the people who are looking for those sort of concessions if you didn’t treat them as if they were providing a service for you that demands a certain thing in return.
How did you put the band together?
We just held open auditions and met everybody.
Handed in the résumé.
Nah, no résumé, just come and play. Two people in the band have never played live before. So yeah, it’s just a matter of giving people opportunities.
What were you listening for?
Just mistakes and choices.
In a good way, mistakes that sound interesting.
Yeah, exactly.
Where does that come from for you musically?
Because when things go wrong, you have to be able to improv a little bit, but also kind of have a level of creativity behind your approach. And I think that texture is really important. You can do a lot of stuff with pedals and modulation and stuff like that, but you want people to have their own idea of what they’re performing or the palette that they’re trying to bring to what you’re creating.
This new direction seems so much more geared toward performance. Is that intentional?
Being a smaller artist, you always have to consider how you perform and how you’re going to introduce music to people who don’t know it. That’s something that we had to learn relatively fast, opening up for people and being on the road doing festivals, stuff like that, early slots. You have to have something that is not too jarring, but still enough to get someone’s attention without being kind of off-putting.
So as you create music, you have to find that middle ground of how you can have someone go, “What is this?” And that’s whether it’s through a cultural barrier or language barrier. You want to make sure you have something that makes people kind of turn their head, and you can distract them from what they’re more focused on, whether that’s their phone or another act or waiting for someone to perform. It’s just that middle ground between entertaining and being polarizing that we try to put into the music so you don’t have to reverse-engineer it too much when it’s time for a live performance.
NINA WESTERVELT
It’s interesting that you describe yourself as a smaller artist. A lot of people wouldn’t categorize you that way. Is operating at this scale intentional?
You got to be realistic. I don’t feel the need to lie to myself. I don’t need those kinds of things personally, so that’s where I am.
There are songs on this record that I feel could almost be pop hits.
Yeah, but you don’t pick that. If it happens, it happens. And it hasn’t happened. So we’re not a big artist. I can still go outside and live a completely normal life.
Has working on The Vince Staples Show, your Netflix series, changed how you approach music?
I was more so writing and producing and shit like that. I’m not an actor. I don’t like cameras, so I was only in the show because I had to be, to be honest. I think you have to research the things that you’re dedicating your time and your thoughts to. Writing that show and being on a show definitely did help with just efficiency of how you run a music operation and the amount of time that you spend on certain things, revisions and things of that nature. It’s just a very television thing. So I do definitely think it had a big impact on the way that we put this project out.
What about the performance aspect, even the part you hate, being in front of the camera? Has that changed how you approach being onstage?
No, you act all the time, bro. Every time you do an interview, every time you meet a fan, every time somebody stop you in front of your grandma’s and you take a picture, you’re acting. We’re all acting. That’s what society does to us. It teaches us how to act accordingly. I’m not doing nothing everybody else doesn’t have to do when they’re at work.
You just have a different appreciation for it when you don’t get to really turn it off. With this, having music and having this job, you get to go away. So you have to be kind of grateful for some of the freedoms and liberties that you’re given by it. I don’t mind doing this kind of shit. It’s just that people don’t like my answers, but I’ve never complained about it. It’s just people don’t like the answers.
Do you enjoy performing live?
Yeah. Why not?
I watched the livestream, and you’re on your shit out there.
Yeah, but it’s like my job. You feel me? So I don’t know. I don’t really know what to say.
So if you’re an NBA player…
You just have a good game. I understand the escapism and shit like that of being a fan and being like, we have aspirations, and it really all come down to money, bro. Nobody asking people that they don’t think have money any of these fucking questions. So the question is, “Hey, I think you’re rich. Do you like being rich?”
I mean, there’s that too.
Instead of saying “rich,” niggas start asking crazy shit. “Do you like being onstage?” I get it, but it’s like, yeah, I wouldn’t do it if not.”
“Is rock music the Isley Brothers? If not, then the Who’s not rock music. Is rock music James Brown? If not, then the Stooges isn’t rock music.”
You wouldn’t do it if you weren’t getting paid to do it.
Here’s the thing about tour, right? When you go to work every day, the building is already there. The desk is already there. Wherever anyone works, everything’s already there. And when you go on tour, nothing exists. You pay for the tour bus, you pay everybody in advance, you pay for insurance, you pay to get into venues, you spend all this money up front, and if you don’t sell no tickets, then you don’t make no money. Nobody’s doing that if they don’t like to do it.
I think people want to know what you gain from it. If they’re in the audience, they’re thinking, “I’m getting so much from it. What does he get out of it?”
I think that’s a little insecure on the behalf of the audience. I think we just got to enjoy the music, man. I think we got to enjoy the music and just appreciate everyone’s contribution to this thing. We’re living, we’re alive. So if I’m an artist and I’m giving art to the world and people are consuming art and appreciating it, we’re even.
Do you like being rich?
I’m not rich like that. I got some bread, but I’m not rich. I got less money than the anesthesiologist.
The other song I was thinking about is “TV Guide.” It’s about TV, but it still resonates with the phone. Do you think the phone is the new TV?
Absolutely, in every way. People like distractions, man. Life is hard. So as a human, we’re always going to need things to help take our mind off of whatever the fuck we’re going through. Sometimes it’s television or music or the radio or phones, streams. Whatever it is, we need distractions because life is very hard for everybody. So I do think that a phone or whatever, iPads, all that shit is the new television for sure.
Do you have any habits you want to change when it comes to screen time?
Internet, nah. But as far as life, yeah, I’m human, but I don’t really be fucking around with the internet like that. They did a Discord. I go in there, talk to the children, tell them kind things. Then I go about my day, bro. I don’t connect the two. My life has nothing to do with my job. My phone is my job, and then you have family and shit like that, but they don’t intersect to me.
So you don’t doomscroll at all?
No. Hell nah.
Very lucky.
What would I be looking for?
Just dopamine.
You got to get outside, brother. It’s a beautiful world, man.
That’s why I brought up live music. It feels like such a different relationship to the audience than putting something out on streaming.
I think it’s the same, bro. Not the same, but if you don’t put it out, they’re not coming to no show.
NINA WESTERVELT
You got to appreciate it as it comes. I’ve played shows where there was five people there, 10 people there, 100 people there, 200 people. People look at my life as interviews. So people will watch an interview from literally 15 years ago and then walk up to me today like I’m 15 years old. So you got to think about how slow and how gradual music changes and how gradual people come along on the ride. You got to put the songs out and you have to do the press and you have to do the things to meet people where they are, because it’s a business.… Who are you to tell them how to enjoy something? A show is a show. If five people there, 10 people there, 100 people there, if they scream and if they quiet, it’s the same thing to me.
There’s an element of improvisation too. Different things can happen live.
Oh, for sure. It’s that, but it’s also when you’re at this level, you’re not really getting new fans. It’s kind of the same people coming to the same things over and over again. So you want to try to find some sort of variation so they’re just not getting the same experience over and over again. You don’t want to feel like you robbing them for their bread. I got 20 tours and six albums, so it’s like you got to switch it up or it’s over.
For yourself too.
Exactly, exactly. So just trying to find a way to give people new experiences is the most important part of touring, especially this late in the game. For me, you got to have new takes on things.
You’ve been doing this a long time, but you’re not old. You’re talking about yourself like you’re an old man.
How many old men you know rapping? We not white, brother, and this is hip-hop. Ain’t no Charlie Wilsons in this shit, so it can be over one day.
Do you think about your career in terms of how you’re going to exit?
No, not at all.
You just keep it going?
When it’s over, it’s over. I go get a job.
What would you do if you had to get a job today?
Who knows, man? I didn’t go to high school, so I don’t have no skills, but I’ll figure something out. I’m just grateful for whatever I have, and you want to make sure that you’re doing the best that you can to sustain it and make sure people feel like they getting their money’s worth.
